Transcript
WEBVTT
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This is a podcast about One Health the idea that the health of humans, animals, plants and the environment that we all share are intrinsically linked.
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Coming to you from the University of Texas Medical Branch and the Galveston National Laboratory.
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This is Infectious Science.
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Where enthusiasm for science?
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is contagious.
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Welcome to another episode of the Infectious Science podcast.
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I have Christina here.
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Hey, it's me.
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How's it going?
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It's going well.
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It's going well.
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It's been quite the crazy week, I'm not going to lie, but this weekend's coming, we're going to catch up on schoolwork and all things wild.
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Catching up on schoolwork.
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Oh yeah, that's a crazy weekend and hopefully next week will be better.
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So yeah, Alright.
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And then we have Camille Ledoux.
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I just love saying your last name.
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Great isn't it.
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I always had French professors at Cornell and they would start to speak to me in French.
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I was always like oh, bonjour is about the extent of where I can go with that Croissant.
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They're always so disappointed in me.
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Happened more than once.
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You're not from nobility, or what do you say from aristocrats?
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Not that I know, no.
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No, the farm in New York was not your castle.
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No it was not a castle.
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But we're going to be talking about this today because we have some really interesting topics today to talk about.
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The first one is TB and Women's beauty standards.
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Women's beauty standards so there must be some historic component to it, right?
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Heck?
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yeah, nobility there you go, that's all right.
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Dennis.
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You're forgiven, thank you.
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And then we're going to be talking about another word that I can't pronounce Porphyria and vampires.
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Oh wow, excellent, who wants?
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To start yeah, yeah.
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So I think it's interesting that you brought up whether or not was tuberculosis a disease of the aristocracy, and I would say tuberculosis was a disease for everybody and still is a disease for everybody, especially because it thrives in crowded conditions.
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So, particularly if you're thinking of when a lot of the standards around, like women's beauty being influenced by tuberculosis, were forming in like the 17 and 1800s, you can certainly imagine like a crowded city at those times and TB just spreading rapidly.
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So while it was certainly something that could affect your social status if you were wealthier and got it, it's interesting how TB came to be perceived, and so that's what I wanted to get into today on how TB has shaped women's beauty standards and narratives and how that continues into the modern day, which I think is really wild.
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Yeah, so there's a bunch of articles on this, and the first one I wanted to talk about is actually a Smithsonian article.
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It's called how Tuberculosis Shaped Victorian Fashion, and so basically they start off how, in the mid-1800s, tuberculosis had reached really epidemic levels in Europe and in the United States.
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We now know that TB is infectious and damages the lungs, is spread by respiratory droplets, but that wasn't known at that time and especially before we had antibiotics, victims of tuberculosis would slowly waste away and they would become pale, really thin, and then die of what was known at the time as consumption, because they were literally being like consumed by this disease.
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And so what's interesting is that between 1780 and 1850, according to an assistant professor at Furman University there was an increasing set of citation of tuberculosis that becomes entwined with feminine beauty, which I think is really interesting.
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This person, carolyn Day, actually has a book called Consumptive Chic a History of Fashion Beauty and Disease which sounds like a book I need to pick up.
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Personally, I'll add that and let it be my 70th book of the year Are you on 69.
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Now I am on 69 for a year.
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That's my girl, show off, you're just rubbing in it.
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That's my girl.
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Show off, show off.
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You're just rubbing in it.
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No, we're not.
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I'm not Maybe two, but I think this could be really cool.
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So the book is an exploration of how TB impacted early 19th century British fashion and perceptions of beauty, which I think is pretty cool.
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What is interesting, though, is we do have sources from this time period that tell us how TB was perceived and how it started to be entwined with beauty, like this article talks about.
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They say that there's a book from 1909 called Tuberculosis, a Treatise by American Authors on Etiology, pathology, frequency Diagnosis, et cetera, et cetera, and in it they note that and this is a quote a considerable number of patients have, and have had for years previous to their sickness, a, a delicate, transparent skin, as well as fine, silky hair, and they talk about how sparkling or dilated eyes, rosy cheeks, red lips these were all common in tuberculosis patients, and there are characteristics that, if you think about it, are caused by a low-grade fever, which tuberculosis can certainly cause.
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Blush Think about lipstick.
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We still use these things.
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But makeup's been around for a really long time and certainly in England.
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There's a English queen, elizabeth I this was like.
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She was like died in the 1600s, but she had a half inch of makeup on her face when she died.
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So makeup's not amazing?
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Oh, my Atlanta, a half an inch.
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It was her mask of beauty or something.
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Okay, kudos to her something.
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It wouldn't go with the beard.
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But, interestingly enough, tb was not just on women's beauty standards.
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They also, once they realized, like what was causing tuberculosis.
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They thought that men's beards were like breeding ground of the bacteria.
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And so there was, like this whole campaign, not only for like women's beauty fashions but for men, that they were like you shouldn't have like scraggly beards.
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Wow, so that helps establish the clean.
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Clap man is what I'm hearing, maybe Interesting.
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I had two questions.
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You were mentioning some really cool stuff.
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So first of all, what's interesting to me, or it's confusing to me, is you said that people back then didn't know how it was transmitted.
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Right, like we, we you mentioned it's in crowded rooms, so aerosol droplets and stuff like that, and that's why it's transmitted easily.
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But the way TB is portrayed in movies, for example, is always the focus on the blood that you cough up, right, the blood in the sputum that comes out, wouldn't it?
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And I would also assume that you cough more if you have TB.
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Also assume that you cough more if you have TB.
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Wouldn't it be?
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A one plus one equals two calculation.
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If you end up with cough and you end up with coughing up blood that you think that somebody would understand that's the origin of your disease.
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It's interesting yeah, a lot of it was this idea of miasma which is talked about in almost all classes on diseases, and it's this idea of like bad air.
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So maybe I don't know that necessarily they link that with coughing, but the idea that whatever you were inhaling could be dangerous to you was certainly part of it.
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And part of what was prescribed for treatment for tuberculosis for a very long time was go out to the country and get fresh air.
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So I think that it wasn't known for a while and I'll talk about this that it was a bacterium that was causing it.
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It was definitely something that there was this kind of notion that it was in the air.
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Interesting.
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The second question that I wanted to ask you is you mentioned that the red lips, the nice skin or what was the word?
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The porcelain skin or whatever you mentioned it was seen in patients with TB, and it's might be due to low grade fever.
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But isn't that interesting?
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Because, like when you're sick, if you have a fever or something like that, you don't look good, right.
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So why would a low grade fever make you look better?
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Do you know what I mean?
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Yeah, yeah.
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And it's interesting that it became so romanticized, because now we think about it like if you have a fever, you're like sweating, not looking great.
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But I think it was more of this idea that that women became very fragile with it and it became very entwined with that.
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And in fact, the fashion and Professor Day talks about this, where, when they were interviewing her for this article, she talked about how like elements of fashion start to highlight the symptoms of the disease article.
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She talked about how like elements of fashion start to highlight the symptoms of the disease.
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So you start to see really like pointed corsets to emphasize, like very narrow waist, you're very skinny, the disease is consuming you, you're wasting away.
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And she also talks about how middle and upper class women would then start to like emulate this consumptive appearance.
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They would start to wear makeup to lighten their skin and redden their lips and color their cheeks pink and just to give that like consumptive look, which is really wild.
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I also just want to make a note here that this is also very much tied into the history of women's beauty standards, specifically focusing on white women, and that's inherently racist and absolutely something that isn't called out in any of these articles that I read about this, but it's something that I just want to make a note of that TB likely also still has a role in that.
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That, like this idea of like very pale, thin women is what's beautiful.
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It's definitely has those undertones.
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But the reason why you use lipstick and the Sprite Red is it shows that there's more blood flowing through the lips, and that's the purpose of rosy cheeks too, right, you have more blood vessels that are dilated and bringing blood to your cheeks.
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So I wonder if it's just like an innate thing, part of our almost animalistic side that found those qualities or characteristics to be attractive.
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I'm not sure, because I've always wondered.
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So you see these, let's say, greek statues of women, right, or even the depictions of goddesses such as Aphrodite, I always thought, wow, this is beautiful because these women are so much fuller than what we think.
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Yes, I have always thought that.
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I've always been so surprised.
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I'm like Aphrodite is supposed to be the most beautiful creature in the universe, according to the Greeks, and she is this incredibly like full figured woman and I thought that was amazing.
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And it did not make sense to me when I was younger because, like you say, our beauty standards are thin, pale.
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That is the epitome of beauty standards.
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But then you see the epitome of a beauty standard for these ancient cultures and it was someone who was fuller and I always wondered when did that transition into the current beauty standards that we have?
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And I wonder if TB really was a huge transitional point.
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Yeah, Before you get to that, Camille, I would ask you don't you think that culture standards are also shifting, Because back then maybe access to food was not as plentiful as it?
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is now.
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And if you're rich and if you're powerful you have access to a lot of food more food that you need for your energy.
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Than you're powerful, you're attractive right, yeah, you have the means to nourish your body even more than you need.
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I agree, I agree, I think that's very interesting yeah.
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Yeah, and I think, Christina, you're absolutely right in that the beauty standards we see today are one, especially with the level of thinness, they are not attainable by healthy people.
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It's not a reality.
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I'm glad that it's somewhat changing, but still needs a lot of work.
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Slowly changing.
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I certainly cannot say definitively that TV is what brought us into falling in love with thinness, but it's certainly a more recent aspect.
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Right is what brought us into falling in love with thinness, but it's certainly a more recent aspect, right, 1700s, 1800s was a while ago, but certainly much more recent than you know, ancient Greece or something like that.
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And I'll talk a little bit about the modern conclusions we can draw from how TB has shaped modern beauty standards.
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At the end and I think that's a really interesting point to get into but stepping away from just how women looked, tb also influenced how women dressed.
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From just how women looked, tb also influenced how women dressed, which I thought was really interesting.
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So, upon the introduction of germ theory, once we stepped away from this miasma theory, realized it was a bacteria that was causing tuberculosis, preventing it became very important.
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Of course we were like, okay, we can prevent this.
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And these really big public health campaigns targeted women's fashions a lot of times, particularly the fact that women were wearing like these long trailing skirts and they had this idea that you were like sweeping up germs and carrying them into your home.
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They were real, almost like a PSA as part of the public health thing that they were like oh, you're sweeping up germs and you're dragging them into your house.
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And corsets also came under attack because they were like oh, you need to be able to breathe fully yeah, otherwise you're exacerbating tuberculosis, potentially because of the movement of the lungs being so constrained, because you're just like suffocating, which also what's interesting is that this is when health corsets became things.
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They're much more like elasticated instead of boning inside the corset to keep it so much pressure.
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What's interesting is they were like don't wear these long trailing skirts, you're spoofing up germs.
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So you were basically able to have a little bit of a higher hemline to show your ankles.
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I say that I don't truly know if you could show your ankles or not.
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Something like that.
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We're getting close to it, that's for sure.
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We're getting closer.
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But you could suddenly see women's shoes.
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So women's shoes actually became like a thing.
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So the fact that we have this obsession.
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I was about to say so.
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I have tuberculosis to blame for my low bank account.
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Oh goodness.
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See, there you go If you have a shoe shopping addiction.
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It started because we had higher hemlines and tuberculosis, so you weren't sweeping up those germs Darn, which I think is really interesting, because shoe style suddenly became like an important part of a woman's overall look, because you can see them.
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They weren't just covered by like these voluminous skirts.
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That is so interesting.
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I never would have put two and two together.
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Another thing you might find really wild, which I didn't know until I was reading these articles, is that at the same time that this kind of like raising of the hemlines was happening, doctors started prescribing sunbathing as a treatment for tuberculosis, and this has given rise to the modern phenomenon of tanning.
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Interesting to see how it changes from someone who's incredibly pale yes, that is a beauty standard to someone who's like golden tan, and that is now a new beauty standard All from the same disease Really interesting.
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I heard the story and maybe this is multifaceted, but I also heard the story that the very white skin color, the pale skin color, or the porcelain, which was 200, 300, 400 years ago, was associated with aristocrats.
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Yeah, absolutely, because they didn't have to be outside working.
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You're not a redneck because you're in the sun, working in the sun.
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And I think that, too, translates into other cultures, even if they weren't necessarily in touch with each other.
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I know that that was also something that was very predominant in Eastern cultures as well.
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Like the same thing, right the lighter and fairer complected you were.
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That had a huge commentary on your social status as well, so it's interesting to see how skin color this could be a whole podcast in itself, but skin color has so much commentary on someone's social status throughout history, it should be a whole season not only one.
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I agree.
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Yeah, that'd be a really long podcast and with some people that are more qualified than not Absolutely, absolutely yeah.
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Yeah, All very fascinating and interesting things to dive into.
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I also just wanted to touch back on this idea that tuberculosis became romanticized in this way.
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That it was interesting.
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I found this journal article about it actually, which I was like, yeah, someone's written a journal, Like I'm glad that someone has written, like a journal of TB and beauty standards.
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No, it's like a whole journal.
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It was called.
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Even in Death she is Beautiful, confronting Tuberculosis in Art, literature and Medicine.
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And I was like, oh OK.
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So I was reading this morning, and what they were talking about is how upper class women who contracted the disease were then, like, judged according to their attractiveness.
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And it was like a wasting disease, right, tuberculosis, because it was a wasting disease they were like.
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It enhances your, like female, beauty standards if you become incredibly pale and waxy.
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Who wants to be like waxy?
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I feel like people actively avoid that, but I guess that was the thing in Victorian England.
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I literally could not think of anything worse to be caring about while I am wasting away from tuberculosis.
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Do I look waxy enough?
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Do I look waxy?
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Am I waxy?
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It gets better, it gets better.
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You just wait.
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Is it giving bed baths?
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And so I think what's interesting is that in this journal article they say that towards the end of the 18th century, tuberculosis was identified as a disease which promoted beauty in women and conferred beauty upon its sufferer, and so the waif-like consumptive was dramatically pale, very thin, red cheeks, bright eyes of fever, and that it became really fashionable to look that way and that good health was basically ordinary, like you were so earthly if you were in good health, Whereas if you had tuberculosis you were ethereal and you were artistic and there was something about it and it was really wild.
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And what's interesting is that someone did a study of tuberculosis by taking photographic portraits of people with TB and comparing them to like people without TB.
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Did they have those photos in the journal article they?
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did Some of them.
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They were composites, which it was really wild, and of course the ones that they were showing were of women.
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But it was interesting that there was one physician and then one guy who was a sir.
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I don't know if he's a sir, make you a lord.
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I have no idea what this means.
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Back, in the day Knighted, knighted.
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Okay, I don't know.
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So they had this photographic studio at a hospital in London and they took pictures of over 400 people aged 15 to 40, and 442 portraits of TB patients were obtained from three hospitals.
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And then they did another 200 people that also didn't have the disease and they were photographed and the images were grouped together and they basically ended up, I think, with saying this was not conclusive of anything, because for a while I think the belief that was TB was hereditary, which it can look that way, right, because, like, ok, if one person dies all these other people have taken care of them right in their families, they're also likely to come down with it.
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No-transcript a portrait of people with this disease.
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Does it make them more beautiful?
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Let's compare.
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It's wild, it's wild.
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Yeah, this reminds me.
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Just to infuse this with a little bit of pop culture, I have this movie on my Netflix list that I need to watch, and it's supposedly about a guy who goes to Hungary or Romania or something like that and takes pictures of people that contracted 1918 flu and were dying of 1918 flu oh interesting, so I'll let you guys know how the movie is.
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That sounds very interesting.
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Is it based on a true story?
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I think it's a.
00:17:48.425 --> 00:17:49.730
No, it's a horror movie.
00:17:50.962 --> 00:17:52.567
But hey, I like pathogen horror.
00:17:52.567 --> 00:17:58.006
That'd be wild, though, like the 1918 flu that was some rough stuff, I wouldn't be taking photos of the people.
00:17:58.006 --> 00:18:01.688
I would be like this is not a super safe environment for me to be in.
00:18:01.688 --> 00:18:03.853
Wow, absolutely, that's wild.
00:18:03.853 --> 00:18:05.741
So I just I had to add this in Tu.
00:18:05.741 --> 00:18:09.506
I just I had to add this in Tuberculosis was so romanticized it became a pickup line.
00:18:09.506 --> 00:18:12.430
It became a pickup line.
00:18:12.951 --> 00:18:20.320
And I checked multiple sources for this because I was like this can't, this can't be real, no one can be this dramatic.
00:18:20.320 --> 00:18:20.903
This man was this dramatic.
00:18:20.903 --> 00:18:28.911
So if you're ready, romantic poet Lord Byron wanted to die of consumption and he has said to have told a friend how pale I look.
00:18:28.911 --> 00:18:37.153
I should like, I think, to die of consumption because then the woman would all say see that poor Byron, how interesting he looks in dying.
00:18:37.153 --> 00:18:40.506
Wow, can you imagine.
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:42.106
But why is that a pickup line, though?
00:18:42.461 --> 00:18:44.742
But that is a pickup line he wants women to be like.
00:18:44.742 --> 00:18:49.032
How pale and ethereal and tuberculous he looks, while dying.
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:50.744
That's a pickup line, wouldn't you say?
00:18:51.066 --> 00:18:51.768
That is good.
00:18:51.807 --> 00:18:57.463
That's something, or at least a desire to like be, like wow, I don't know, I just think that's wild.
00:18:57.865 --> 00:18:58.887
Yeah, that is incredible.
00:18:59.189 --> 00:18:59.549
Anyways.
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.930
And it also shows how superficial humankind has always been.
00:19:03.930 --> 00:19:04.832
I'm not going to.
00:19:05.361 --> 00:19:05.981
You know what I mean.
00:19:05.981 --> 00:19:11.051
He would rather die coughing up blood, just so women would be like how sickly he looks.
00:19:11.112 --> 00:19:14.163
Wow, so sickly, so handsome in his sickness.
00:19:14.785 --> 00:19:15.446
In death.
00:19:15.467 --> 00:19:18.133
Yes, yeah, anyways.
00:19:18.413 --> 00:19:19.977
Romanticizing death.
00:19:19.977 --> 00:19:21.400
Romanticizing death.
00:19:21.619 --> 00:19:22.961
Isn't that an entire?
00:19:22.961 --> 00:19:24.501
You could write a PhD off of that.
00:19:24.501 --> 00:19:25.502
Yeah, that's still a, thing, right, yeah?
00:19:25.522 --> 00:19:25.903
Absolutely Anyways.
